Dungeons & Disciples

Josh Shaw 0:19
Welcome one. Welcome all back, oh Lord. Two dungeons and disciples. I am one of your hosts, Joshua Shaw,

Tony Benda 0:29
and my name is Tony Benda. Go video. See accent today, mate.

Josh Shaw 0:34
No, I'm just kidding. I really like starting it that way.

Tony Benda 0:36
That was really interesting.

Josh Shaw 0:38
It really just got me like,

Tony Benda 0:39
Woo

Josh Shaw 0:41
Jones for this time. I love it

Tony Benda 0:43
for this time. I've not heard that phrase in a long time. I've heard a Jones for something.

Josh Shaw 0:47
I've heard a couple of people say jonesed for something, and it is a thing. I don't know where I pick it up. Maybe it's like, the Western thing, and I love it. I don't know, because, like, I guess there used to be a drink, and maybe it's around. I have not seen it out on the east coast, but ever since, because I'm from Arizona, yeah, there's a on the West Coast, there's a drink. It comes in a glass bottle called Jones soda. Yeah, I love Jones. You love you've known Jones soda,

Tony Benda 1:13
yeah, Chicagoland has it. I don't know where they bottle it, or whatever, but it's delicious. It's

Josh Shaw 1:17
literally just a picture of a dude on the front of it, like a black and white photo, I think isn't like

Tony Benda 1:22
natural, like, sugar canes, sodas and stuff like that. I

Josh Shaw 1:25
think so. Okay, I don't know. I just remember going down to I used to live in a really small ice I say village, which makes it sound really weird. My I don't know why I used to stick cuts. We call, we literally called it the village. Yeah, it's kind of odd. And I think about anyway we, I lived in this village, and down the street was, like, was a bar. We called no bar, but it was a bar, but there was attached to at a restaurant, and there was always, like, this small fridge on the side when you walked in, and every time, they always were stocked on Jones sodas. Jones

Tony Benda 1:54
is amazing. Yeah, I've had a few different flavors of Jones, and it's, it's very good stuff. I wish I can find it again, but I can probably order some online, yeah, but if anyone wants to send us some Jones sodas, we can set up a PO box just for these straight up, straight up, say, Joan soda is delicious, or just shoot us an Instagram message or something on Facebook if you want to send us Joan soda, otherwise, we'll suffer and I'll go get my own Joan soda. I'm kidding. We're grateful to do. So I

Josh Shaw 2:21
don't think I'm suffering, but I think if I tried it again, I would, I'd be like, Wow, am I gonna find it worth it, honestly, though. Speaking of people sending us things, I want to give a couple of shout outs. I wanna give a couple shout outs. I know he's gonna listen. I know he's listening to this my friend, Luke. He's my boss's son. He's so in love with the podcast, I showed up to work and one of my co workers like, here, there's a present for you this. This dude had gotten a sticky note and was like, Hey, man, sorry I missed you. I bought you some dice, and I wanted you to have them. And they're like these. I mean, they're not even they're like the size of rocks, but they're like, mini dice. That's so sweet, and they're so so cool, and I'm so excited to play with them. But we also need to shout out a couple people. We shared our podcast on a couple of platforms, and they're just a couple names we wanted to shout out just because we love your support. We thank you for subscribing. Yes. So

Tony Benda 3:24
if you're part of the Facebook page, the Christian D and D community, we dropped our link in there. When you're listening to this, it probably was a week and a half ago, about seven, eight days ago, and there were quite a few comments of people that were saying that they're subscribing on their respective podcast platforms. So thank you to all who did subscribe and like the show and all those things, because it's huge, and it does help us get noticed, and yeah, just on different platforms, it helps us get seen. So Kevin b Who subbed on Pocket Casts. Thank you for that. Follow and Kenneth S and AJ B, and Chris C, who we've been communicating with recently, who's got a woodworking company out in the Pacific Northwest. Thanks for the shout out again. Jodi B, Tim P, Drew G, Brian R, dusty M, who has a YouTube channel, and Sean K, um, thanks to everyone who has definitely followed us and subscribed and all the things it's it's really, really helpful, and

Josh Shaw 4:39
not just those people alone, but just the entire community, when we started this podcast, you know, especially when the enemy begins to attack you, when you start something new, that's for Jesus. I think the one thought that daunts you was like, Is this really going to work out? Is is this really going to be be fruitful? Yeah, and we have stuck close to the Holy Spirit. We have been guided and led by Him and nothing but support. I have seen and heard. I mean, people have sent us voice memos of the impact. People have shared the like. Shared this podcast like crazy. People have been impacted just in their journey with Jesus and just to shed light on this community is something amazing. And really, before we kind of get into today's episode, I really just wanted to what we not i We, we really wanted to really encourage you guys, like, if you're building new games, if you have a product that you want out there, or even just like, want to share with us your testimony, and you want to chat. We're on so many different platforms that we're going to talk about the end of the episode, and we want to hear from you guys. We want to share your products. We want to promote you guys, because you guys help us promote the gospel of Jesus. So give us, message us, shout out to us, reach out to us. But definitely speaking of shedding light, Tony, I'm gonna be honest, I'm a little nervous for this episode. It's

Tony Benda 6:13
a little bit different. It's good, it's good, but it's a different style. We're not gonna have to like super D and D nerd out this week. I mean, we are, in a sense, but like, little bit, a little bit, but little less than normal, but still, still good content. I I think, I

Josh Shaw 6:31
think it's necessary. Yeah, for real, I was excited when you brought this topic up, you know. And just for the listeners, I've talked with Tony about this, but realistically, folks, we're recording on a Friday, I felt the Holy Spirit bring upon this episode Sunday at church. I was convicted. I was moved. And as we were building episodes, I just felt the Holy Spirit drop this name, and as I begin to pray through it and work through and I messaged out to Tony, and we talked about some of the topics. I mean, we just went, we just went hard in the pain. So I don't know what to say. It's going to be an incredible episode. And I think it's, I think if you open your mind to the content that's going to be presented, I really believe that it can help a lot of people, and I really believe that it can shed some light on some very dark areas that we can think about.

Tony Benda 7:30
It's very relevant to a lot of people playing D and D, and who are involved in the Christian community, just because the different, you know, topics we're specifically discussing so and I think we've teased it enough. We've

Josh Shaw 7:43
teased enough. I think so none other Today's episode is titled Dark Vision, yep, dark vision. I love that title. The Holy Spirit dropped that title, and I was like, ooh, ooh. And we talk about shedding light on this. And I think I just want to, we want to dive just a little little bit into the DND aspect of it. Tony, talk to us a little bit about dark vision. We know it's something in DND that's pretty self explanatory, but we should still talk about it anyway. Yeah.

Tony Benda 8:18
So dark vision, it could be a couple different things. First of all, it could be a spell in DND, or it could be something that a person has based off of a racial feature, so to speak. So like they're born with this ability, this dark vision ability. So what it is is you touch a willing creature to grant it the ability to see in the dark for the duration the creature has dark vision out to a range of 60 feet. There's a couple different like, descriptions of dark vision. Obviously, there's that spell thing we just read, but then it's an ability that allows creatures to see in darkness or dim light, as if it was brighter. I think that's where my mind was going with it.

Josh Shaw 8:58
So like, like a kit, like a race, right?

Tony Benda 9:01
Yes, a

Josh Shaw 9:02
race has that particular feature, yeah?

Tony Benda 9:04
So like if you're a specific class, or if you're a specific race of your species, so to speak, if you're in very dim lighting or even moonlight, that moonlight, to you, looks as if it was sunlight up to a specific range. So that's pretty much what Dark Vision does, in a nutshell. But

Josh Shaw 9:22
then there's also, like, spells that can do with that. Like, I know there's light can trip too, that can shed light on something. One thing I really like doing, um, that kind of relates, like DM discretion sometimes, like use, like, being really creative in games, like, if you have like, five, like, if you have any kind of fire abilities, or any kind of ambient like spells that can cast ambient light. I've played a lot of like one shots in campaigns where people have used their spells to cast, like ambient light. Yeah, you know, for you know, if they, if everyone else has dark vision, they don't, they can do something to do that. And I think there's a lot of really cool, creative ways to cast light in. In the middle of like caves or out in deserts rip I kind of tease one of our little parts of our campaign. We're out in the desert, in the dark.

Tony Benda 10:09
It even

Josh Shaw 10:12
true that was rough.

Tony Benda 10:13
That was rough there for our crew. I mean, you could even shed light on things with something as simple as a torch, which is in every Explorer's pack.

Josh Shaw 10:21
Yep, that's cool. That's really good. That's really good. We don't talk about that a

Tony Benda 10:24
whole we don't talk about torches that much as as party members. We always talk about the magical ways of, you know, creating light. But

Josh Shaw 10:30
I've never, you never used a torch. Are you serious? I've always had, like, I've always played characters that had dark vision, so I never needed one. Well, I guess that makes sense. And I don't think I've ever really been put into a situation where Dark Vision didn't work. Gotcha? Would that even be a thing?

Tony Benda 10:46
Maybe, yeah, like if you cast darkness, I think if you cast darkness, now I have to look this one up. Too good.

Josh Shaw 10:53
That's interesting. Casting can does Dark Vision negate darkness?

Tony Benda 11:02
Darkness? Versus dark vision? Yeah. So if someone casts darkness magical, darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to a fill a 15 foot radius sphere. For the duration, the darkness spreads around corners, and a creature with Dark Vision can't cannot see through this darkness. That's interesting. And non magical, light can't illuminate it. That's very interesting. That

Josh Shaw 11:29
is, that's that, right? There is kind of cool. Yeah, I actually, I did not know that.

Tony Benda 11:34
See you guys were learning something new too. I hope you are.

Josh Shaw 11:36
That's what I love. We always learn something new. It's fantastic because now I can go into a gameplay and be like, you know,

Tony Benda 11:44
that's why I really like casting darkness on certain areas, like when we were trying to sneak you back into the temple that we were you mean how I got dragged like a dog? You didn't get dragged like a dog. You could not tell me. You cannot tell me that that

Josh Shaw 11:56
last part, I was not being dragged around like a puppy because you guys were scared.

Tony Benda 12:01
Perhaps not scared. You guys were terrified, cautiously optimistic that we weren't gonna get eaten alive. Folks, I

Josh Shaw 12:10
will admit my character did something that, if you know the context of the campaign that we're in, or kind of a particular element, or would it be element? I

Tony Benda 12:21
don't know. I don't know it really be the thing that was making you shine like a light bulb,

Josh Shaw 12:25
Shine bright like a diamond, that's right. It was not good stuff, folks. And when my character kind of consumed it in a honestly awesome way, it was really cool. I attuned to a weapon, and it was, it was actually kind of cool, until Creon wanted to Count Dooku. My hands true. That would have been sick. It

Tony Benda 12:44
would have been really cool, like that moment where Count Dooku is kneeling in front of Anakin Skywalker. His hands were gone, you know, gone and about to lose his head. I

Josh Shaw 12:59
What if Jared cut off my hands. What would I have done? I

Tony Benda 13:02
don't know. I don't think I can cast mending and fix that. I think greater restoration would have been the one, all right,

Josh Shaw 13:10
folks, mending,

Tony Benda 13:15
cast the mending cantrip 87 times to try to fix every little micro sin, you know, sinew and fiber of your anyway, that would have been rough. What

Josh Shaw 13:23
an exploration also wouldn't have worked. That would be some crazy rules.

Tony Benda 13:26
We would have needed some NAT 20s on medicine. Checks easy.

Josh Shaw 13:33
So like, there's not a whole lot of content, we really need to dive into it. However, there is some DND things in regards to dark vision that we need to shed some light on. Yeah, definitely. Let me preface it with this, folks. This is a we're going to break this down to a couple of segments. Really. The purpose of this episode is to shed light on a couple of subjects, and we want to be very sensitive to these particular topics, because, let's be honest, I believe, we believe that there, there is a stigma when it comes to DND, very much so and Tony actually want to do something. I know we prayed before the episode, but I just kind of want to reach out to the Holy Spirit before we start this particular topic, because as we communicate to the listeners and as we walk in this subject, I just really think we need the we need the guidance from the Holy Spirit, definitely. So Father, in the name of Jesus, Lord, we just come to you in this moment and just ask for wisdom, guidance, discernment, gentleness with our speech, with our tongues and our hearts. God, would this content be fruitful to you, be fruitful to our listeners, and just reveal and shed light on some really challenging things. God. Thank you so much for this wisdom in advance, Lord God, and for the words that you will give us that we can speak to these listeners in Jesus name, amen.

Tony Benda 15:09
Amen.

Josh Shaw 15:12
So Tony, let's go ahead and start this first, this first segment called shedding the light on the stigma, yeah, the first thing we kind of want to discuss is a little bit of the history behind D and D. You know, we're not going to dive deep into a history lesson necessarily about, you know, when D and D started, but we want to shed light on a couple of, maybe comments that you may have heard or or even just honestly, terms that may have been thrown at you for playing DND. Well,

Tony Benda 15:49
I will say the one little bit of history I will say is that Gary Gygax, who's from Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, he was the one who created DND back in, I think 64 I say 64 because at Gen Con this year, there was the 50 year anniversary museum that they had set up in honor of Dungeons and Dragons, which was really cool. A lot of these old, original source material, books and stuff like that set up. But since the mid 60s, as this game was kind of emerging, and it was coming to popularity, and, you know, people started hearing about it and learning what D and D was. There was, especially in the Christian community, there was a lot of stigmas, like, you know, that it's demonic, that it's unholy and offensive to God. And really, because it has things like devils and witches and witchcraft and magic and sorcery, and, you know, all of these things that like, yeah, I guess the game has it. But also the Bible has it too realistically, because the Bible talks about witchcraft, the Bible talks about witches and demons and unholy things, but in the context of the Bible, it tells us to avoid those things. So that's why this stigma was around and so harsh about it, too, that, like, if you play this game, you're gonna burn and like all these things, which obviously I haven't burned yet so, and I'm a believer in Jesus, and I don't think that. I don't know. I'll just say this, I have not felt condemned playing Dungeons and Dragons. Me neither.

Josh Shaw 17:30
You know, I think a lot of comments that I hear are like, especially from like, maybe parents or like, my kids should never be playing that and on it. And I mean, just to be honest, you could go on YouTube right now and type in, why is Dungeons and Dragons bad from a Christian perspective? Yeah. And I'm sure you will get a million videos, both old sermons new sermons about why it's bad. Right

Tony Benda 17:54
here, I'm gonna insert a couple clips that you guys can listen to, just a couple little snippets of different things from a couple of those YouTube videos, just you have an idea of what those sound like back in the day, about people condemning d&d so intently.

Speaker 1 18:10
I do not think that many parents are aware of what's inside the game. In fact, in my presentation, I show many pictures from the inside the books, just to show the images of this game. I mean, the gruesomeness of this game and the occult linked to it. Well,

Speaker 2 18:24
I know that when I did my message, and this has happened, I have letter after letter where people took the pieces. Now there's sixes involved in the pieces of the game, but they take the pieces of the game, they would throw them in the incinerator or the fireplace, and screams would come out because there seemed to be some kind of spiritual forces inhabiting those pieces, and children would drop out of life they didn't want to study anymore. What are the pieces? For instance? Well, this

Speaker 1 18:49
game affects the most intelligent of our children, and the pieces include white witches, wizards, necromancers, the clerics, that type of thing. It includes evil wizards. It's a white versus black witchcraft. The good versus evil is white versus black witchcraft. And Anton Levy, the writer of saying this Bible, says there is no such thing as white witchcraft,

Unknown Speaker 19:13
but being a Satan worshiper, he should know,

Speaker 3 19:17
the game of Dungeons and Dragons has been around since the early 70s, is played by an estimated 5 million people. It is also the target of a group of concerned parents in the United States who call themselves bad B, A, D, D, bothered about Dungeons and Dragons. The reason they are bothered is because they believe the game has been involved in a number of murders and suicides across the United States and now in Canada, at the trial of a 14 year old boy who admitted to strangling a young Orangeville Ontario girl and her brother, it was revealed the accused had been playing the game for 18 months. Had in fact been a dungeon master of his own group for five months,

Speaker 4 19:55
dungeon master and Dwarven swordmaster Hobgoblin. Dwarves, elves and havelings are some of the characters and terms used in this very complicated and controversial game. We'll talk about the controversy in a moment, but first, this report by Carol Jerome, who went to one of the games of the Toronto Dungeons and Dragons club.

Speaker 5 20:15
It's a fantasy role playing game, and it's a refined version of the pretend games we all play as kids. The books tell how to play, describing all the kinds of characters the player can be and the monsters that will be met on each imaginary adventure. Some players, like these boys, like to make up their own fantasy voyages.

Speaker 6 20:36
There's no board or pieces. It's all in the imagination, and you find six skeletons on the ground.

Unknown Speaker 20:42
What do you do? Daniel

Speaker 5 20:44
green is the Dungeon Master who guides the play.

Unknown Speaker 20:49
Can I do something? Yeah, two wishes.

Speaker 5 20:51
Wish that the door opens in this game. For example, Oli plays the role of a Cavalier named fallinger bandrask. Mike is a fighter, and Erwin is a Paladin, and

Tony Benda 21:02
we're going to go the other way,

Speaker 5 21:06
the other corner. Oh, okay. A dungeon master takes them through a strange Castle this time, and they must respond to each situation he describes according to their characters, all of whom have prescribed qualities of strength and wisdom, certain powers and magic. When they encounter dragons and other evils, the battle is decided by an intricate scoring system and by these special dice.

Josh Shaw 21:33
And I think it's important to to hear those things, to shed light on some of the honesty about what people have said and why, you know, Tony, I think it's really important to be honest. Definitely, actually, it's kind of convenient, because randomly, one night, actually, before our chat, we actually chat on Tuesdays, a lot of with our content. I was actually going through the monster manual. Oh yeah. Just Just, just, you know, just reading through the monster manual just before a chat, as one does, as just normal one does, you know, really proves our case at this point. Um, but I think it's okay to be honest that there is a dark side to it. Oh, for sure. You know, there are images that people draw, that people are drawing, like in the monster manual, things like that that can be scary. They they obviously have not great names to them, but it's okay to mention that fact there DND does have scary images. It does have scary creatures, and there are some, I emphasize, some storylines that are played in a very, very dark way. Yeah, and let me say this, it can be played in a way that invites evil, but it can also be played in a way where we don't have to let evil situations rule the gameplay. And notice how I said, it can be played that way, not it is not played that way. That is where I think the stigma comes from.

Tony Benda 23:04
I agree with that, yeah, what

Josh Shaw 23:06
do you think about that? No, I

Tony Benda 23:08
think you're exactly right. Like there are definitely people who may or may not be saved that will play this game, and they will lean heavily into the darker source material. Obviously, this is a role playing game, so keeping that first and foremost in our minds that this is a fictional thing. However, there are things that people struggle with, like being in a depression, or, you know, in the real world people do channel dark things. There is a real thing as witchcraft. There's real thing as magic and sorcery, but it's an evil it truly is an evil thing in the world, but, and that's all truly demonic. But again, that's in the reality of of our just normal. You know, here on Earth, life in D and D, where it's a fictional space where we intentionally play a game. You can choose not to play with those darker themes. I guess that's what I'm trying to say with all this.

Josh Shaw 24:14
That's what's a good way to put it, and I'm a living testimony to that, for sure. When I was in a season where I wasn't walking closely and intent with the Lord. I was playing a campaign that was very dark source. Now I will say this, it was all homebrew material. For those who don't know what homebrew is, is a person took the concepts of DND, they took an overarching like characters, lore, things like that, but they created their own storyline. So this was not D and D material that I was playing. It had D officially, not officially published material. That's why I should say there was some very dark things that made me like have nightmares, and I'm going to be open and bonus about that, versus now I'm walking and. Dwelling with the Lord a lot more than I have in a ever. I should say my walk with the Lord is incredible, yeah. But I also now play, we play D and D with a group of Christian dudes, yeah, that have a great time. And we don't invite those things. We don't play as if we're consumed by that, correct. So

Tony Benda 25:19
parents out there, keep in mind that we're not saying D and D is a bad thing. That is something that you as parents. Each set of parents can determine for themselves what obviously they want their kids to be associating with or watching or ingesting material, same thing with television or movies and stuff like that. You be a parent and you sit down with the Holy Spirit, be like, Lord, what do you want? Yeah, to how do you want me to approach this specific topic with my kids? Yes, and I truly believe the Holy Spirit will lead you and guide you as Christian parents, how to raise your children. And that's so good. That is so good. So don't instantly just say DND is not for my kids, and then leave it at that. Allow the Holy Spirit to speak into the decision.

Josh Shaw 26:06
And the Holy Spirit can can confirm in you, like, this is not good for you right now. This is not good for your family, right? Yeah,

Tony Benda 26:13
it could be a right now thing too, like what you just said, Right? Or it could be a forever thing. And, you know, sometimes we just have to be like Holy Spirit, okay? And I yield to that,

Josh Shaw 26:22
but, but notice, listeners, we are not going to mislead you or even justify why it's right to play D and D and we from day one, you guys can even listen to our intro video. We are not trying to justify why DND is holy. That is not the objective. You need to make that call through prayer, discernment and relationship with God, exactly, but, and I said the word dwell, and this is where we want to go when it comes to shedding light on the stigma, when it comes to shedding light on if you play or if you don't play, and you talk, had a conversation with somebody Tony that was really, good. And the quest, the two questions that I want you guys to reflect on as it pertains to playing D and D or not playing D and D or even making a decision to or to not do it is this, what do you choose to dwell on? Where is your heart? Tony? Include, included a really, really great, skipped scripture that says, Do not lay up for yourselves. Treasures on earth where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, but lay up for yourselves. Treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in and steal, For where your treasure is there your heart will be also. Why include that scripture? Tony?

Tony Benda 27:44
Well, in my mind, that's the key for us to really determine what we're focusing on. What are we making idols in our life, and what are we putting before God? Because whatever we choose to put in front of God is where our heart's gonna be. That's good. So this scripture specifically talking about, you know, treasures on earth, or money or gaining things of the world, material stuff. This scripture tells us not to store up those things, because where your treasure is there, your heart will be also. That's why we're supposed to lay up heavenly treasures. That's why we're supposed to in my in my mind, when we're standing on the promises of God, when we're learning the scriptures, when we're, you know, memorizing Scripture in the sense of like thy word, have I hid in my heart that I might not sin against thee. That's good. We have to store up scripture verses, not to save for a rainy day, but necessarily, but to dwell on them, to live by the Bible, to that's one of the things we say here at our church, is like we have these seven virtues of a kingdom seeker, and living by the Bible is one of them, sharing joyfully, pray, continually, meeting together, making Jesus known. There's a couple more as well. But like that scripture for where your treasure is there will your heart be also, is your treasure in the Word? Is your treasure in relationship with people? Is your treasure with the Holy Spirit, or is your treasure with D and D? Are you putting things in front of God, making them idols? Because Exodus clearly says in the 10 Commandments, have no other gods before me. So what are we making? An idol? I guess that that's where I kind of, you know, land with that scripture. I

Josh Shaw 29:26
think it's healthy to say if you have more of the DND 5e manual memorized than the promises of God, that's probably not a good thing. Yes, and I say that with as much gentleness as respect, guilt, some of that, right? But it's truthful. It's truthful if you can't think of a single promise of God, but you can say, but you can talk to someone and spit off the 5e manual like It's like your best friend. That may, may be an indicator that you're not spending a. Enough time with the Holy Spirit as you should. I'm not saying it is the indicator. I'm not saying that you don't that you can't have both promises of God and the five Emmanuel memorized, correct? I'm not saying that. What I am saying, especially for spreading the gospel, are you using D and D as a gateway into sharing the gospel, or are you simply saying you're a Christian to just bypass that and talk more about DND? Yeah, that is where it becomes, in my view, that's where I would say. Are you more concerned with storing treasures on heaven with people, or are you more concerned about sharing the treasure of the gospel with somebody else? An additional question to understand about, rather what we're dwelling on and where our heart is, is this, and this is a humbling one, what do you choose to participate in while you're in game, that's good. Or another way to say it is, does how you play come out in who you are, and I'm gonna be honest when in our own campaign, I had to work through Now, granted, I wasn't an alcoholic at the time, yeah, but my own character reflected behaviors that I had once exemplified and I had not worked through with trauma. Canaan, my first character in our campaign, yeah. And it so coincidentally, and I think I brought this up in another episode, so coincidentally, I was in counseling at that time, working through a lot of that trauma that nearing the end of my counseling, my character died, wow, nearing that time where my counseling was like, I finally felt at peace about it. I finally felt okay about it. My character died, and I created someone new, yeah, and I got to explore something different, something new. But there's a scripture in Galatians chapter five, the same chapter where we find the fruit of the Spirit, but before we ever get to the fruit of the Spirit, Paul informs us about the fruit of the flesh. And it is a real, real thing, yep. And I want everybody to listen to this very, very carefully as we read it. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, division, envy, drunkenness, orgies and things like this. I warn you, as I warned you before, that's powerful that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. I almost want to sit on the weight of that scripture. It's heavy on the crazy part. I just noticed it says, I warn you, as I warned you before. Yeah, I should say like this, what the gameplay character does is not a sin. You're in a fictional universe playing a character. The gameplay character is not committing the sin. However, if you act like the character does outside of what is in game, if you're personifying the character, you're doing, that's a sin, for example, if you're if you're in game and you're committing random acts of murder, and you personify that. I mean, that's, that's an extreme, that's, that's an extreme. But the point is, like, if you're, if you're striving to commit random acts of murder, if you're striving to get drunk in game, if you're striving to, you know, make seduction roles inside of your campaign, and I'm just, I'm just being honest, folks, I'm just being honest about it. If you were striving to do that, you leave your campaign and then you're trying to personify that out outwardly, that is sin, yeah, and we have to call like it is and and I understand, like I get where people come from with the stigma about it, they want to stay away from it. They don't want to invite any evil in none of this. They don't want to participate in that. But like, if we go SO DIVE INTO THE weep, like into the weeds of it, like, oh, I want my son or daughter or whoever, to stay away from all the all the drama, all the witchcraft, all the anger. Okay, cool. Marvel literally created a character that embodies anger. Yes,

Tony Benda 34:53
he's green and big. He's green big and

Josh Shaw 34:55
is angry all the time. Anger. Wow. Go. Galatians literally says, like, get rid of bits of anger. So for justifying D and D, then we can justify marbles, not Marvel's not holy. But that's not what I'm trying to I'm not trying to compare. I'm not trying to argue. I'm not trying to justify. That's not what I'm saying. My point is this, you can't em, you can't embody who you're trying to get the correct the character to be. And we're also not trying to limit creativity, yeah, if you want to play an angry gnome dude, by all means, play an angry gnome. If you want to do a guy that that does personify like, like, maybe your story starts I was like, You're, you're a drunken Bard that lives in the bars and all that kind of stuff. But then as the as the campaign progresses, maybe your goal is to like, Hey, maybe I want to personify this character as like a drunken bar. But then as the journey, or adventures like he gets to understanding himself and knowing himself, and actually comes out of that stage of life, there's nothing wrong with that kind of creativity, but there, there is. There does need to be discernment about, are you walking that life that you're living in your character? Tony, am I? Am I making sense? Or am I? I

Tony Benda 36:16
mean, it makes sense to me. I mean, role playing is one thing, but when we're taking that character and exactly what you said, personifying it in our own lives, then definitely that is taking it a step too far in with everything there's there's moderation, yes, so, yeah, you can lean into the murder hobo, you know, persona, so to speak. But I mean, at some point it also becomes very dry gameplay. Oh, yeah. So not just think of how dark you're going with your story, but think of like the story as a whole. That's good. Are you really lending to the story? If you're creating a character like this, are you lending to good quality if you're creating negative characters all the time? So there's also that. And I know a lot of it D and D, most people play it like they try to, you know, play their imaginary hero, where it's a hero's journey, and they save the day, great by creating good characters. I think you're also creating good stories. That's

Josh Shaw 37:15
good. It's actually funny. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know why they run time one time, but let me just say this personifying evil character will also run down your DM. I read a subreddit one time, really, who was having a trouble. He was actually asking advice from people on Reddit, and because he was like, Hey, I'm playing with a group of kids that all they want to do around, all they want to do is like, kill things and plunder. Yeah. So he actually home brewed this cave like to literally be impossible, like this cave, and in essence, for his whole subreddit, this cave had a ton of obstacles to get around. It was designed to be impossible, and even if they did manage to get it like 90% of them would die to prove a point like this game is not just about you running around killing things and looting, yeah, all day long. Literally, the he's like, my character, my players are only asking, how much loot did I get? How much XP did I get? Yeah, like, they're treating it like, wow. Like, essentially, those are like,

Tony Benda 38:14
okay, dungeon diving is one thing, and there's, there's fun in dungeon diving. But if you're with a group of people who want to tell a story, like create good gameplay and create a good story, that's I have a hard time with that. Like dungeon diving has its place again, but looting, looting for XP and for gold is kind of pointless, because realistically, in the grand scheme of things, in the world of DND, I don't think you need gold. I don't think you need

Josh Shaw 38:43
Ezra, my character, my game, has like, 3000 gold. I've spent none of it. I've actually a majority of the things I've spent are on like, other people. Like, here's my goal. I

Tony Benda 38:51
don't need it. A good DM will allow your characters to find the things they need as they go, or work it into a story somehow about, you know some random traveler gifts, you, you know three potions of healing, because they're no they know that. Like, oh, you're going there, here, you're going to need all this help you can get take these potions. Like, I mean, that kind of thing. So get away from the dungeon diving nonsense, unless you like that, which is cool. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not shaming the dungeon dive. But don't be evil people all the time. Your DM will get worn out. That's what the point is.

Josh Shaw 39:25
Good stories lead to God's story. Yeah, I know I thought likes it being led to say that good stories lead to God's story. That song Blessed, blessed assurance. Everybody sings it, but I'm driven. I'm driven by this lyric. This is my story. This is my song, praising my Savior all the day long. Yeah. What story are you telling if you're dungeon diving and only going for Luton for gold, Jesus, Christ came, born in a manger, died on the cross, lived an adult life, lived a life. In the not in the flesh in the sense of sin, but live the life in the physical flesh. He was telling a story. The whole time. He was sharing stories with His disciples. Parables were, were these examples and metaphors and stories that engage the mind of people? Yeah, he was engaging in storytelling. DMS, players build stories, yeah, because people will be drawn to you by the stories you tell. They'll be drawn by the stories you tell. So if you walk and play in the story, if you live out your character in a story, if you live out and breathe that character in a story, maybe it's, maybe it's about you, maybe it's about a friend, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's just fun and creative in whatever facet you do it tell a good story, because that testimony story of your character can come out into conversations only, like, Man, that's so cool. How did you create that story? Yeah, because maybe that story leads to God's story, in the sense of, dude, this was actually me, or the, you know, the Holy Spirit just gave me this kind of inspiration. I've been do. I'm actually going to start doing this. I just feel convicted. My next character I play in my campaign, I'm gonna pray about what God wants me to play. That's great. I'm gonna pray about the character God wants me to play. I'm gonna pray about the background story that it wants me to write, because I get the opportunity to even play that character once, twice, three times, and I can create that backstory. I want someone to ask me what I created and why I created it is from the Holy Spirit. This, this, this, this and that, yeah. And here's what we're trying to say, is when you do this, listen, folks, if you're playing a campaign, you're playing a one shot. Don't participate in sacrifices or adultery or random acts of murder or looting, random things. You don't have to play that way. And, and here's a bold thing, if a group starts playing in a way that is not edifying to edifying to the Spirit of God, walk away. It's hard. It's hard, but, but do it? Walk away from it. Straight up, yeah. And here's what we will say to a lot of this, shedding light on the stigma, and I think it's important to hear. And I'm gonna identify three classes of people, or third classes of people, whatever I'm want to speak to kids first, teenagers that are maybe playing right now and just going through their new D and D walks or even playing for some time. Here's what the Scriptures say in Ephesians, chapter six, verses one through three, children obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and your mother. This is the first commandment with a promise that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land. Colossians, chapter three, verse 20, says, Children obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. This is going to be really hard to hear that. I want you to receive it with an open heart. If your parents don't allow you to play, don't allow your anger to provoke you to sin and live a life of rebellion, trust your parents, trust their discernment with the Holy Spirit. Trust that they're seeking the Holy Spirit. Yeah, and if they say no. How can you take your season of waiting and grow in it? If they say yes, how can you continue to honor your mother and father for a very spiritual and maybe hard decision that they're going to allow you to move in it? Don't just honor your physical mother and father, father honor God, whether it's a yes or no from the parents. Parents, I want to say this, and Tony can chime in too, because we're parents. Yep, and I'm gonna say this very, very like between me and Tony as people and me and Tony as podcasters. Yeah, we at dungeons and disciples are 100% on your side, as as us being parents, two beautiful kids. We want the best for our children, period. We're not telling you to not allow your kids to play. We're not saying that you need to let them play, because this is why, and giving biblical explanation to why. But what we will always sell tell you is this, and there's some scriptures I want you to lean on. Romans, chapter 12, verse two, do not be conformed to to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect? Yes, amen, lean into what the will of God is for you as parents and for your children. Sometimes that Holy Spirit can say, Yes, go ahead and let them keep oversight. He'll give you wisdom and guidance. Sometimes, the Holy Spirit says, Not yet, but be willing to talk with your children and have the conversations and continue to lean into the spirit. And James, chapter one, verse five. If you need wisdom, ask our generous God, and He will give it to you. He will not reveal I love this. The NLT says he will not rebuke you for asking. It ain't a silly prayer. Folks ask him. Ask what he needs. No. Prayers. Too small. No. What do you think about that, Tony? That's we're both parents, but

Tony Benda 45:49
what do you think I'm new at it? I'm only like who you're

Josh Shaw 45:53
still one. You're still one. Doesn't matter. I know you.

Tony Benda 45:56
She's almost she. By the time this comes out, she'll be seven weeks old, which is amazing. I don't know when I when it comes time for me to introduce little Charlie Charlotte to D and D. First of all, she has a Build A Bear. That's a D and D dragon. I love it. It's super cute. His name is Drew so that little dragon will be protecting my daughter for the next six years, until she learns how to play D and D at the age of five or six. Oh, bless and but we're still gonna, you know, teach her the ways of the Bible. And you know, we as Christian parents are praying over her constantly, and we're already telling her who she is in Christ, and that's right at at seven weeks old. And you know, she's fearfully and wonderfully made, and she's a daughter of the king and a co air with Christ, and like we're standing on these promises even before she has the opportunity to decide for herself, we're praying these things over her. But I don't know it's it's weird. I haven't hit that spot yet, but I know it's coming, and I I'm thinking about it here. I don't know what was the question? My mind just blinked.

Josh Shaw 47:05
I was ranting just just about what you think about using spiritual discernment and appropriate communication with the Holy Spirit, about inviting your kids to D and D, which I honestly this is something that dropped on my heart. You just have a Build A Bear of DND. You're creating a positive stigma already. Yes, it doesn't have to be frightening. It doesn't have to be scary. But you're preparing for the you're preparing her for a biblical walk about what the Bible says about her. Yes, but you're also creating a positive stigma on it, that it doesn't have to be a dark thing, correct? And that's beautiful. That's honestly beautiful. Drew is

Tony Benda 47:40
her protector. I love it sits next to the crib.

Josh Shaw 47:45
Last person we want to address is every single one of us Christians, fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Yeah, Tony, I want you to read Ephesians, four verses, 17 through 32 it's a long passage.

Tony Benda 47:58
Oh yeah, it is, but it's good, but we need to hear it. Yes. All right, folks, Ephesians, 417 to 32 this is out of the ESV for those ESV translation peoples. All right, here's Ephesians, 417 to 32 Now this I say, and testify in the Lord that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do in the futility of their minds, they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them. Due to the hardness of heart, they've become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy, to practice every kind of impurity. But that is not the way you learned Christ. There's an exclamation point there too. That is not the way you learned Christ, assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self created after the likeness of God and true righteousness and holiness, therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members, one of another, be angry and do not sin. Do not let the sun go down on your anger and give no opportunity to the devil. Let the thief no longer steal, but rather, let him labor doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear and do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander, be put away from you, along with all malice, be kind to one another, tender hearted, forgiving one another, as God in Christ forgave you.

Josh Shaw 49:52
That is a powerful Scripture. I love that if you're not walking in the newness of the Holy Spirit. Is there something you need to confess? Is there something you need to lay down? Is there something you need to get rid of? That Scripture is calling you to lay aside the things that are of the flesh and put on with a tender heart, the things of God. Yeah, I'm gonna drop a real big truth bomb, and I'm really, really sorry about it, but you need to be willing to ask yourself this question, do you need to be playing at this time? Are there sins in your life you must be set free from before you can continue to step into this gaming lifestyle? You have to make that call. We can't make that call for you. People talk about this stigma all the time. But what if you begin to embody the light of Christ and say, You know what? Maybe there's something I need to get rid of in my life, and D. And D is preventing me from attaining that by spending time in my word, by spending time with God. Maybe I need to stop playing for a while so I can go pursue him. Mark, chapter nine, verses 43 through 49 I'm not going to read the whole scripture, but there's some I would really, really encourage people to go read it. And here's why. It was kind of actually dropped on my heart by your brother. But it talks about the Temptations to sin. I mean, the Scripture literally talks about, if your hand causes you to sin, to cut it off. It says, if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. If your eyes cause you to sin, tear him out. That Scripture used to terrify me. Why? Because, let's just be honest. Part of that after it says those things, it says, This one is from verse 43 it's better for you to enter life crippled them with two hands to go to hell. That should make a preach. Yeah, that should make you terrified. Why the Scripture is saying this. If there's something in your life that's causing you to live a life of sin, get rid of it so you don't continue down the path you're not meant to walk. Folks, I love DND, but if it causes me to sin, my brothers will tell me that I need to stop. That's true. And then I need to walk a life filled with the Holy Spirit. And I expect the same, right? Aaron expects the same. Steven. Steven Jarek, all of them expect the same. Expect that from me. They love me enough to be honest. You need to love yourself enough to be honest. That's right. We're calling you to action in if you are, if you are playing, and it is an outlet for you to play. Are there Christian brothers that you can pull aside and say, Hey, man, can you walk through this with me? You have to be honest. Which brings us to point number two, shedding light on dark situations or issues of our heart. I was reflecting on this today. There's a story in First Kings, chapter 18 through 19. This synopsis of the story, Elijah goes to the top of mountain. There's prophets of Baal up there trying to prove that he's not God. Elijah is praying and praying and praying, throws water and logs, does all this stuff. And the prophets of Baal are basically saying, like, Your God is your God sucks. Yeah. Elijah prays, and all of a sudden a burst of fire comes down and lights these logs on fire, and the prophets of bear are like, Excuse me, and Elijah, like, this is my God, calls down fire from heaven. From Heaven sheds light, yes, on that dark situation, absolutely. But Then Elijah, in the next chapter, in chapter 19, this Jezebel comes up to him, is like, I'll kill you, and then gets afraid and runs away into a cave that quick the fire of heaven comes down, yet Elijah let one person disrupt the very miracles he had seen God do he let one Voice to turn and send him running until the wilderness. In fact, the word says he would rather have died than call upon God who brought fire down, literally shed light on a on a hard moment and ran away. Yeah. Where does that come from? I believe we choose to sit in the darkness at times rather than walk into the light, I believe we let sometimes, we let our afflictions destroy the very faith we claim to have and allow the sun to set on our dreams, our visions, our goals and our promises from God. Because even though we saw the miracles of God, but then we let one thing deter us? Yeah. Colossians, chapter three, verse two, says, Set your minds on the things that are above, not on the things that are on the earth. And I think it's because we can't do anything on our own strength. I think we need to shed light. I on the darkest areas in which we feel. What do you think about that, Tony? I

Tony Benda 55:07
think that's awesome. Well, thanks. There is. There's truly nothing we can do in our own strength. I mean, Philippians 413 is a commonly quoted scripture that says I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. That doesn't necessarily mean that I can now go to the gym and bench 800 pounds. So just because you believe it, or anything, God strengthens you, or that I can, you know, be an Olympian and go earn the gold at the next, you know, relay race or whatever, just because I believe on that scripture, I think with Christ's strength, with Christ's help, if we're living in rightness with God, we can do anything that glorifies Him, that edifies him, that helps, you know, helps us in a situation where we're shedding light in the kingdom, where we're ministering to people, where we are, where we feel less than in our Christian walk. I think that's where God gives us the strength to then do things we didn't think we can do before. So I cannot, in my own strength, raise people from the dead, but the scripture says that we have the same power and authority that Christ had through the Holy Spirit. So if we're truly believing in the word, if we're truly believing in the Scripture, we have that same strength, and we just have to ask Christ for it. So that's where we can come up with the Scripture. I can do all things through Christ, who gives me strength. Don't use an abuse of Scripture, necessarily, but first we have to set our minds on the things that are above, not on the things on earth. And then I think we can ask God for the strength to do things.

Josh Shaw 56:54
You know, Tony, Can I be honest you about something? Go for it. I One of the righteous angrily things is Philippians, 413, for me, it honestly makes me righteously angry how much we use and abuse and misinterpret that scripture. There's so many scriptures, yeah, if you look at verse 11, it says, now that I am speaking of being in need for I have learned what in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low and I know how to abound. This is verse 12 now. And any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need. Paul is literally saying, in the best situations and the darkest situations. I know what it's like to depend on. God, absolutely

Tony Benda 57:43
we can't depend on anything else.

Josh Shaw 57:45
I just we so many people tattoo Philippians, 413, and they say, yeah, man, when I'm bench pressing, looking down on it, or, man, yeah, when I'm really just, you know, on doing this, doing that, I just look upon it. And I'm not, I'm not discouraging to tattoo it on yourself, because maybe there is a really big story behind it. But why don't you tattoo Philippians four verses 11 through 13? Because then you have to force yourself to go back and read verses 11 and 12. Yeah, I know what it's like to be in the dark situations. I know what it's like for my faith to be set to go on us to have sunset faith. Yeah, I know what it's like. I know what it's like to have crap. I know what it's like to have to have everything. Yeah, I've been in both worlds. But what I was actually reflecting on this today, first Kings 19. We commonly hear that story Elijah comes out of the cave, and God is not in the fire, God is not in the thunder, God is not in the wind. God is not in the quake, but what God is in is in the Whisper. What I love about that is God chose not to be in those things because God wanted Elijah to hear him from the heart of where he was not in the glorifying powerful things. Don't get me wrong, folks, God can shed light and bring fire upon and give you a fire that is just without reservation upon your life. Do miracles that will blow your absolute mind. But the way he wants to shed light on your situation is by just speaking with a gentle whisper to your heart first. So like when we talk about it and we and we ask ourselves, like, if we truly sit down, we ask ourselves, how do we shed light on the darkest areas we struggle to navigate. The first place we have to be with is honesty. You need to be honest with Jesus and honest with yourself. Are you in despair? Talk to him. Are you frustrated? Talk to him. Are you filled with anxiety and confusion? Talk to him. I think we, we try to, we try to give so much to God at. One setting, but we don't just have a conversation on what we feel. John Calvin says something really powerful. He says, You can't know God without knowing yourself, and you can't know yourself without knowing God. God's invitation is to both know him and know what you're going through, and to know yourself enough to know that you need to give it to God, yeah, being honest with him about it, that's good. I

Tony Benda 1:00:25
think a lot of the times there are people that spend time in the platitudes, not the Beatitudes, but the platitudes of the word, Oh, that's good. They like to quote these common scriptures of like, I can do all things. It's the you know, Jesus wept. It's the ones that everyone seems to know. But I think we post it on our walls and we paint it on our houses and stick it on our office doors because they're, you know, encouraging scriptures. Don't get me wrong, like Jeremiah, 2911, For I know the thoughts don't get me started. It's such a great scripture, but I love it. My dad's favorite scripture, but I also think that one's misquoted. But read

Josh Shaw 1:01:07
all of Jeremiah 29 folks, and then you'll appreciate rough chapter. I'm just gonna throw that out there. If you want to know, obviously, if you want to know how God is moving you into a promise, and that how he has plans for your future. He literally drove a people into exile because of their disobedience. Then Jeremiah writes to them and says, rather than saying, just, just you'll be okay, he literally says, in a foreign land, plant grow, establish love. Have unity, have celebration. Yep. Read Jeremiah 20, Oh, I'm getting I'm sorry, I'm getting started Read, read Jeremiah 29 I'm I'm challenging you to do that, because when you do and you realize how he's calling those people to shed light on the darkest thing that they have experienced since Egypt, truly, then you will read Jeremiah 2911 and says, I'm going through some crap. I'm going through some really dark stuff. But God has a plan and a purpose for me, and he will shed light on my dark situation. 70 years y'all, 70 years he had them wait 70 I think God is trying to shed light in the middle of your Egypt so he can walk you out. That's so I don't know why it's brought to my heart, but God controls everything. The Egyptian god Ra was the god of light, was the god of the sun. And God snapped his fingers and he said, No, now there's darkness. That tells me that if God can bring Can God can bring both of those things? There's nothing too dark for you that he can't handle. That's right, I'm sorry. I'm preaching good. No

Tony Benda 1:02:48
preaching. I'm

Josh Shaw 1:02:48
preaching. Listen, folks, I literally put a little emoji of His Word. I put it, I put an emoji on there with a little pencil on there, because I my pastor does it, and I love it, but it says, Don't focus on what is behind, but on who is ahead? Philippians, literally I wrote Philippians, 313, brothers. I do not consider that. I have made him my own. But one thing I do, forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead. In fact, Second Corinthians, chapter four, verses eight through 10, the truth of His Word says we are pressed on every side by troubles, but we are not crushed. We are perplexed, but not driven to despair. We are hunted down, but never abandoned by God. We get knocked down, but are not destroyed. Check this through suffering our bodies continue to share in the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be seen in our bodies. You will go through dark times. In fact, some of those dark times will probably be you playing DND and your Christian community just calling for what it is, your Christian communities judging you and saying, Oh, you're a heretic. That's evil, that's demonic. How could you participate in sin when maybe, rather than being called to justify why it's right, just walk by faith and by the fruit of the Spirit and embody the fruit of the Spirit. You if somebody discourages you or persecutes you, pray for them. That's the word of God. Pray for them and learn how to be the light. Until somebody has to walk up to you and say that, even at that this, that same person, and they have to say, man, how are you? How are you doing this? How is God just ruminating and giving you to be a light amongst the world, and you can say it to them, because all I want is Christ in my life, the way you change the stigma is by walking out who really rules your life. I'm sorry, Donnie, I literally, I get so passionate about walking that out, rightfully so.

Tony Benda 1:05:11
And to kind of piggyback off of what Josh was saying, talking about being the light, there's a huge scripture that comes to mind that most people know. It's the portion of Matthew five where he's talking about salt and light. This is part of Christ's Sermon on the Mount, where he goes into the mountains. And he's preaching to the people who have come to hear and he's going through these Beatitudes. And then he finishes the beatitude portion of Matthew five. And then he goes into salt and light, saying, You are the salt of the earth, starting in verse 13, you are the salt of the earth. But if the salt has lost its taste. How shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet near the light of the world, a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, amen, nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand and it gives light to all in the house in the same way, let your light shine before others so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven. That's good. That is, that's something I had to memorize in eighth grade, by the way, so I could graduate in eighth grade. I went to a Christian school, and I had to memorize Matthew five, six and seven in the King James. So I've in the King James, yes, King James, Ye are the salt of the earth. But if the salt hath lost its savor, where, wherefore shall it be salted? Something like that. It's been a long time, folks, you and I

Josh Shaw 1:06:31
kind of just learned actually, really recently, and probably everyone's known about it, but it just impacted me. I was actually making fish a couple nights ago, and it said to put salt on the fish. And I was like, laughing. I was like, why am I doing this now? I was like, just it tastes good. And Jayla straight up looked at me, my wife, and she said, No, Josh, you know why they do that? And I said, why? She's like, because salt, salt will withdraw the water and retain it. Yeah, if we're called to be the salt of the earth and the living waters of the Holy Spirit lives in us. Shouldn't we be the if we're called to be the salt, shouldn't we be the embodiment of retaining and not quenching the fruit of the Spirit? Shouldn't we be the ones that retains those living waters and then, rather than keeping it into ourselves, pour out and overflow amongst people that's good, like our communities, our game tables. In fact, Second Corinthians, chapter four, verses five through six, says, For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as Your servants. For Jesus, sake for God, who said, Let light shine out of darkness, has shone in our hearts to give light to the knowledge and the glory of God and the face of Jesus Christ. Psalm 36 verse nine says, For with you is the fountain of life in your light. Do we see light? Ephesians five eight says, For at one time, you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord, literally a command, walk as children of light. We are not in darkness anymore. I think the enemy has tried to cast the spell darkness over us, and I think it's time for us to put on our armor, like we talked about in our last episode, yep, and shed the light. Can trip and you, you know the funny part is about that. Read, read, the darkness spell for me, again,

Tony Benda 1:08:50
magical darkness spreads from a point you choose within range to fill a 15 foot radius sphere. For the duration, the darkness spreads around corners a creature with dark vision, can't see through this darkness, and non magical light can't illuminate it. 15

Josh Shaw 1:09:05
foot radius, right? Yeah. So if you walk out of that 15 feet, you're no longer in darkness. That's right. So basically, what you're saying is walk as children of light. If we just keep going forward rather than looking to what's behind, at some point, we're gonna walk out of that darkness. Yes.

Tony Benda 1:09:19
15 feet ahead.

Josh Shaw 1:09:21
15 feet Yep, even the darkness spell has limitations, but we serve a God that has no limits for each brother, we need to be doers of the word, and not just here. So Tony, I want to transition into this kind of like in this kind of unique way, we always end our time with just a moment of encouragement. So Tony, here's our open dialog moment, rather a word of encouragement from both of us. How do we individually walk out that light, and how do we do it at game tables?

Tony Benda 1:09:58
Well. For one. I want to refer back to Psalm 119 for a minute. Psalm 119 longest chapter in the Bible, verse 105 says, Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. That's good. So if we put the word of God first in our lives, in everything we do, that word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. So as we're trying to figure out where to go and what the and what to do, the word of God will be leading us and guiding us. So as we're stepping out of that 15 foot radius sphere of dark vision being the light of the world, rely on the word for direction, rely on the Holy Spirit to give us direction in our lives. Now, how do we do it at our game tables? That's a good question. I mean, truthfully, if we're living by the Bible, if we're living as Christ followers, I think it just would come naturally if we're spending time in the Word and we're spending relationship with like, and we have a developing relationship with Jesus. The closer you get to him, the more he will shine through you like in your walks and at your game tables, regardless of like, if you're doing it intentionally or not. I think each person, the closer they get to Jesus, they farther they get from the world. So I think we'll look, look a lot less like, you know, not, okay, no, no shame on anyone, but like. We're not going to be like our, our stereotypical brethren down the street who are playing with, you know, not being Christians. That's right. I think we'll have a slightly brighter game, maybe not. But, you know, I still think that because Christ shines through us, we will shine through our games and at our game tables. That's good,

Josh Shaw 1:11:51
my encouragement. And I don't know why this is on my heart. I've really been reflecting on the character of Jesus lately. In my own time, Isaiah, 53 says this, and I really, really want people to hear this, starting in verse three, it says He was despised and rejected, a man of sorrows, acquainted with the deepest grief. We turned our backs on him and looked the other way. He was despised and we did not care. Yet it was our weakness he carried. It was our sorrows that weighed him down. And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God, a punishment for his own sins. But he was pierced for our rebellion, crushed for our sins. He was beaten so we could be whole. He was whipped so we can be healed. All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God's paths to follow our own. Yet the LORD laid on him the sins of us, all. Isaiah, 53 verses, three through six, the light of the world died for us, and I had some wisdom laid on me very recently.

Why are we continuing to live in the things that Christ died for? I Christ died for us. Jesus died for our sins. We call this a moment of encouragement, but this is honestly my moment of challenge. Stigmas aside, all that aside. To be honest with you, as I've gone through this episode, I don't really not gonna say that, but I am. I don't care about the stigma. I care about where my heart is with, God

Tony Benda 1:13:54
yes, that's it.

Josh Shaw 1:13:59
I don't care what people think for me, for me, please that that's a statement for me. Okay, I care where my heart is with God. How am I aligned? Because if I focused and remember that Jesus died for my sins, that I need to walk by the by the Spirit of the Living God, and not by the spirit of my flesh, then I will aim to play a game with players Christian fellow believers, and walk in the newness of life. That I will have the courage that if I do play a game where I'm not sure if people are Christian, and they are starting to play in a way that is not edifying to the Holy Spirit. I will have the courage to say this is not really the way I want to play. I love you guys, but I have a good night. I want to shed a light on this community brighter than any darkness could be played. Mm, hmm. It, because I know my God is light of the world, the God of the universe is light. And I have to talk about, I just have to bring it up, because it just is. It just is. In the beginning, John, are you going to John? I'm going to John. John. One in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. Oh, this is why In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. Thank you, Jesus. I just want to let everybody on this, this that listeners know we love you guys. We are here for you. We want to hear your stories. We want to pray with you, and we're aware that some people may disagree. We're aware that some people may agree. Either way, we will love you all the same, and we want to have a conversation about it. There may be things we didn't talk about. There are many things that Tony and I may have not have considered, and we are willing to have the conversation either way. We want to walk with you guys on this journey together.

Tony Benda 1:16:29
All opinions expressed in dungeons and disciples

Josh Shaw 1:16:31
are true. Well,

Tony Benda 1:16:37
folks, no for real. These are, these are our opinions, and these are what we feel called to share with you guys. So as dark as this episode, not dark, dark vision, and as heavy, it's a heavier episode. I'm not gonna lie, because these are heavy things to consider, like Josh said before, if, if you're feeling conflicted about playing D and D right now. Pray about it, ask the Holy Spirit. Because truly, like the Holy Spirit will give you the guidance whether you should be playing or not right now, or at all, or ever, or if this game is fine for you and you are able to glorify God through it. Awesome. But we, we first and foremost, point to the Creator. Yep, and, and we want to be obedient to what God has called us to do. That's right. So keep that in mind as we play. Keep that in mind as we you know, listen to our DND podcasts, keeping it, you know, all of them included. So this

Josh Shaw 1:17:36
was fun. This was a fun one. I'm glad we prayed and invited the Holy Spirit, yes, and we just wanted to thank you all folks for tuning in listening. And we invite you to share your thoughts and experiences and some of the things we've shed light on, or you want to have further conversation on what we should shed light on. I might I just add this before Tony beautifully plugs all of our social medias. I will plug this. We are now on Discord. That congratulatory thing. It's a great place to have community, have fellowship, to type out, to have video conference calls. Might I say, Tony and I that's like, Tony. Now what Tony, I love to do is talk to people. Yes. So join our Discord channel so we can have some conversations and some meetings and to hear about you guys as well. Tony, won't you? Won't you plug our socials and our messaging platforms All

Tony Benda 1:18:32
right, guys, I got this. I got this. I got

Josh Shaw 1:18:35
this. Take a deep breath.

Tony Benda 1:18:38
Okay, so we are on Instagram and Facebook at dungeons and disciples. That's the word and spelled out, folks, dungeons and disciples on Facebook and Instagram and our Gmail, our email is dungeons disciples without the word and@gmail.com dungeons disciples@gmail.com so feel free to reach out to us. Shoot us a DM, shoot us an email. Shoot us a picture of your gaming table. Ooh, shoot us.

Josh Shaw 1:19:08
That would be, you know,

Tony Benda 1:19:09
I love to see other people's, you know, setups and how they play. So like, if you guys want to share that, share it in the discord. If you want to hop on our Discord, I'll put the link to the show in the show notes as well. And if there's anything else we are forgetting, we'll put in the show notes as well. Thank you all again for listening. It is always a pleasure, and it's so much fun. And this is episode eight already. I still can't believe it, but we've been doing this for two solid months already. Four solid months. That's

Josh Shaw 1:19:37
crazy. Four months. Four

Tony Benda 1:19:38
months, goodness gracious, that's amazing and encouraging, and God is still working in the TTRPG community. So I'm so grateful for it. Thank you guys for listening and yeah, okay,

Josh Shaw 1:19:50
share this story all for God's glory. Truly you want to pray for us. I do Father in the name of Jesus. We love you. You. And we, thank you, God for everything you are doing and what you have done. Lord God, thank you for shedding light on some of the darknesses in our lives, Lord God. And I just pray that you would continue to convict us, move us in the way that we should go. Lord God, whether that be a yes or a no, Lord God, let us glorify You in it. Jesus. We thank you for shedding light on these circumstances, Lord God, and I pray the story that was told here would be spread forth amongst the people, all for your glory. And it is by your glory and name that we pray and believe, seek and praise you in all things.

Tony Benda 1:20:38
Amen. Amen. Thanks, guys.